Speaking Gibberish in a More Delicious Society
Paul GoodellI often think that we don’t pay enough attention to the language we use. By that, I don’t mean that we curse or swear too much. I mean that we often use words, or use words in ways, that say things about the world that we may not mean or even believe. This is a very important point to understand.
When I was in graduate school at George Washington University, most of my fellow students were politically liberal. They didn’t usually call themselves liberal, though. They usually called themselves progressive. This was largely because political focus groups long ago told us that Americans tend to associate “liberal” more with “socialist” or even “communist” than with “politically left of center.” Erstwhile liberals searched for a new label, a safer name for themselves that still represented their views and goals for society, and generally settled on “progressive.” It was an inspired choice. “Progressive” contrasts nicely with “conservative.” It gives the impression of looking to the future, of being open to and accepting of what comes, while “conservative” gives an impression of looking backwards, and, as William F. Buckley said, “standing athwart the flow of history yelling, ‘Stop!’” It also gives the impression of moving ever closer to a better society, closer to the best expression of the common good.
And there, I think, is the problem: I don’t think most people, progressives included, really understand what they mean when they say things like “better” or ”progressive.” I don’t even think most of us understand what we mean when we say, “common good.” “Good” is a pretty particular word. Let me explain what I mean.
For nearly all human history, people assumed the existence of objective moral truth, of Right and Wrong in capital letters. They assumed that, when they called some actions wrong it was because those actions deviated from a standard of conduct that existed on its own. They viewed wrong behavior a little like how we view wrong answers to math questions. They believed that they were just stating simple and obvious facts about the universe when they called certain actions “good” and others “bad,” or called certain acts “better” than others.
Yes, people in different cultures sometimes differed on what they thought good or bad, but they all shared the conviction that their understanding of right and wrong was not just a mask for their opinions or desires, or a cover for socially beneficial behaviors — anymore than we think that 2 + 2 = 4 because we want it to be so. They believed in a moral law that judged human behavior but which could not itself be judged by humans — something that existed apart from human desires and human actions as much as the times tables do. Moral language developed the way it did because people assumed these beliefs to be true and self-evident.
Starting about a hundred years ago, however, Western society began to seriously question the existence or importance of an objective moral law. The questioning began earlier among the philosophers, most prominently Sigmund Freud and Karl Marx, but by the late 19th and early 20th centuries their questions began to penetrate the public consciousness.
Freud, for example, believed that our conscience was simply a reflection of social norms, and that morality was basically social programming adopted to keep people from killing each other and to allow civilization to form. People learned what behaviors made societies work well, and their rulers harnessed religion (created from people’s need to soothe their fear of death and of the unknown) to reinforce socially beneficial behaviors and discourage behaviors harmful to society. Marx believed that morality was basically the result of class struggles. The powerful figured out what behaviors among the common people would best perpetuate their own power, and then instilled values in them that ensured that they would behave that way.
The upshot for both Freud and Marx was that the notion of an objective moral law was a sham. Morality was all about behavior that benefited others — society (for Freud, and most of today’s anthropologists and biologists) or the powerful (for Marx) — not about what agreed with some supposedly objective moral law. For the past fifty years, postmodernists, who used Freudian and Marxist beliefs about morality to build their basic (and invaluable) insight into the bounded nature of human reason, have worked hard to convert the rest of the West to belief in subjective morality — and they’ve largely succeeded. What they haven’t successfully changed, however, is basic human moral language, and that is where we come back to the problem of being “progressive.”
As noted above, human moral language — terms like “good,” “bad,” and “better” — developed because people believed that morality was subject to rules as objective and unyielding as those of mathematics. 2 + 2 = 4, not five or twenty-two. We see that five, however, is much closer to four than twenty-two is, even though it’s a wrong answer. We can only speak this way, though, because we have absolute, objective concepts of 4, 5, and 22. Those values are what they are, and only because of that can we speak of them as being closer or further from each other. Only because of that does math make sense.
It’s the same with morality and moral language. Only if there’s an actual, objective moral standard of what is “good” does it make sense to call anything “bad,” “better,” “worse,” or “progressive.” If this moral standard doesn’t exist independent of human desires or social constructions, then it would make as much sense to talk about a “more delicious” society as it would to talk about a “better” society. If “better” doesn’t receive real meaning from a constant “good,” it’s impossible to compare things – after all, there’s no accounting for taste. We might not consider what one society thought best for itself (such as the chattel-slave status of women) to be good for us today, but who are we to judge? It’s hard for us to condemn the Romans for putting unwanted infants out on hills to be killed by wild animals, or Southern US slave owners for viciously terrorizing the human beings they owned if we’re only comparing preferences, which is all that subjective moralities come down to in the end. The Romans could only feed so many mouths, after all, and the Southern agrarian economy depended on that free labor to survive. Both societies would have likely collapsed if they weren’t allowed to act as they saw fit, and what is the point of morality if not ensuring that societies don’t collapse?
What it comes down to, then, is this: it’s impossible for us to use meaningful moral language unless objective moral standards exist. People who have no objective standard for what is really good can have nothing towards which to progress, and therefore, “progressive” has no real meaning at all. If nothing is truly “good,” nothing can ever be “better” — or “worse.” The same people who use passionate moral language to condemn racism, sexism, infanticide, or the death penalty are themselves often agnostic about morality’s objective basis, or convinced that no such thing exists. Yet there can be no real moral language where there is no real, objective morality. The absence of the latter negates the former. It is a lesson that we who use terms like “good,” “bad,” “better,” “worse,” or “progressive” to describe actions, public policies, or societies must remember: when we say such things we are bearing witness (sometimes unconsciously) to the reality of objective moral truth. Otherwise, we must be content with speaking gibberish about our more delicious society.

February 9th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
I started to type that it is possible to construct language schemes which would be consistent with a relativist moral framework; it would just look different than current paradigm. I quickly came to realize that this does in fact exist. The words “preferences” and “values” are more consistent with the “morals” as they are called in relativist philosophy. And of course, preference implies no right or wrong, which is fundamentally different from a moral. So you really cannot construct a language for “morality” unless morality is objective, because morality implies right and wrong.
February 9th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
I have to say, I completely disagree with your ice-creams. And no matter what you say, my chocolates are just as valid as your jelly beans. Shame on you, and your intolerant peanut-buttery morals!
Being serious, it is highly interesting that Freud, Marx, and Nietzsche also, all did something similar intellectualy: they denied that the ‘bad’ or troublesome aspects of human nature could be overcome by the will: Freud: sex automatically infuses our every thought-the solution is sexual liberation. Marx: boasting, and craving objects, controls history-the solution is tyrannical equality. Nietzsche: egotistic pride drives the will, drives the further evolution of man-the solution is to reject traditional religious definitions of ‘good’ and ‘evil’.
All 3 of them said the same thing: that man can have his utopia, his paradise in this world, even outside the garden of Eden. He must view his own nature as that of a pig, totally depraved, totally determined by his weaknesses, and to try to somehow accept that, forge a way of life that works around that. He must love the world, and worldly philosophies: “…the lust of the flesh (Freud), the lust of the eyes (Marx), and the pride of life. (Nietzsche) 1 John 2.16.
February 13th, 2008 at 8:27 am
C.S. Lewis uses an amusing parable in his allegory, “The Pilgrim’s Regress” to make a similar criticism. He says:
“There was a certain man who was going to his own house and his enemy with with him. And his house was beyond a river too swift to swim and too deep to wade. And he could go no faster than his enemy. While he was on his journey his wife sent to him and said, ‘You know that there is only one bridge across the river: tell me, shall I destroy it that the enemy may not cross; or shall I leave it standing that you may cross?’”
The point of the parable is to illustrate the Marxist and Freudian fallacies concerning reason, specifically their opponents’ reasons for denying their (Marxist or Freudian) positions. Marxists criticized reason as a tool the bourgeois used to dominate the proletariat and Freudians criticized reason as a series of post-hoc justifications to cover sexual impulses. The conclusion for both Marxists and Freudians was that their opponents’ arguments were flawed because the reason they used to construct them was biased, untrustworthy, and were therefore meaningless. That sword cuts both ways, though: if reason really is as the Marxists or Freudians claim then their own arguments are similarly biased, untrustworthy, and meaningless — and there is no point in making them. If the man (the Marxists/Freudians) can use the bridge (reason), then so can his enemy (the non-Marxists/non-Freudians); if his enemy can’t use it, neither can he.
The same goes for morality. Anyone who claims that morality is entirely subjective or is entirely a process of physical processes (which is essentially saying the same thing) cannot then make moral claims about how something is “just wrong” or “evil”. He must choose either an objective morality in which “wrong” “good” and “evil” make sense as terms but where his actions can be judged as wrong, or a subjective morality where his actions can’t necessarily be judged as wrong but where he can’t call anything “good” or “evil”.
February 13th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Sorry for the quote-mining, but this one’s just too good to pass up. On what Paul has called ‘basic moral human language’:
“Other vague modern people take refuge in material metaphors; in fact, this is the chief mark of vague modern people. Not daring to define their doctrine of what is good, they use physical figures of speech without stint or shame, and, what is worst of all, seem to think these cheap analogies are exquisitely spiritual and superior to the old morality. Thus they think it intellectual to talk about things being “high.” It is at least the reverse of intellectual; it is a mere phrase from a steeple or a weathercock. “Tommy was a good boy” is a pure philosophical statement, worthy of Plato or Aquinas. “Tommy lived the higher life” is a gross metaphor from a tenfoot rule… This, incidentally, is almost the whole weakness of Nietzsche,[& ‘progressivism’ in general] whom some are representing as a bold and strong thinker. No one will deny that he was a poetical and suggestive thinker; but he was quite the reverse of strong… Nietzsche always escaped a question by a physical metaphor, like a cheery minor poet. He said, “beyond good and evil,” because he had not the courage to say, “more good than good and evil,” or, “more evil than good and evil.” Had he faced his thought without metaphors, he would have seen that it was nonsense. So, when he describes his hero, he does not dare to say, “the purer man,” or “the happier man,” or “the sadder man,” for all these are ideas; and ideas are alarming. He says “the upper man,” or “over man,” a physical metaphor from acrobats or alpine climbers. Nietzsche is truly a very timid thinker. He does not really know in the least what sort of man he wants evolution to produce. And if he does not know, certainly the ordinary evolutionists, who talk about things being “higher,” do not know either.”
-G. K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy
February 14th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Forgive my slowness, but I didn’t pick up why this standard has to be objective? (I’m on board with there being objective truth, don’t get me wrong.)
You say that moral codes in the West used to be more uniform, and I probably agree, but I’m not sure that uniformity are necessary to a ‘good’ reference.
I think what IS necessary, albeit inconvenient, are asterisks on every adjective we ever use without uniformity’s existence.
February 15th, 2008 at 8:32 am
Uniformity really isn’t the point. It’s not so much that moral codes used to be more uniform, in the West or anywhere else. As I acknowledge, moral codes in different places and times sometimes differed in several respects. What they agreed upon was an objective basis for morality.
Think about the math analogy for a minute. What is seven? It’s an abstract concept, really, but also an absolute one. Seven has an absolute value that is exactly between six and eight. Of course, if six and eight don’t also have absolute values, our concept of seven is in flux. Only if these mathematical concepts really exist and really have value does our talk about them have any meaning beyond our own minds. If these concepts don’t objectively exist — if what I call “nine” is what you call “seven” and if what I call “addition” is what you call “square root” — then any attempt to engage in mathematics is a waste of time.
My point is: it’s no different with morality. What does “better” mean, if not “more good”? What does “worse” mean, if not “more bad”? How does either term have any meaning if “good” and “bad” don’t refer to a fixed standard? I’m not here arguing that any one of us has an inside scoop on what this fixed standard is. I’m simply pointing out that the entire history of moral language directly implies the existence of such a standard, and that if such a standard (whatever it may be) doesn’t exist then moral language itself is completely meaningless.
Or try a little thought experiment. Let’s say that a friend of yours genuinely mourns the loss of white hegemony that the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments to the US Constitution brought about; that he thinks it was morally correct for the white race to lord it over all others. Let’s say that he thinks that racial slavery was a moral good, and that all social developments that did away with it were moral evils on par with developments in 1930s Germany that paved the way for the Holocaust. To him, it’s morally correct for white masters to rule colored slaves. You disagree with him. Why?
He takes great pains to insist that whites must be good masters and treat their slaves well. He points out that for all but the last century of human history, people thought slavery normal and perfectly fine. It’s only this new moral innovation that keeps us today from acting in solidarity with our ancestors. What does this new doctrine have to recommend it, against literally thousands of years of human experience? Why is it better? If you don’t insist that moral standards must be objective, if you don’t really believe that your concept of “good” is based on an actually existing moral standard, how do you answer this person honestly?
February 16th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
An idea doesn’t have to be morally agreeable for it to be correct, useful or good in a context.
Sentences are funny things. There are a lot of nouns and adjectives that are measurable and/or have spatial dimensions such as dog, apple, one and seven. These are generally agreed to be objective.
Then there are conceptual nouns, a lot of adjectives and other elements of the language that only ‘get meaning’ when they are qualified by a noun or in the context of a sentence, environment, culture etc. These are generally subjective (objectionable!). ‘Good’ and ‘progressive’ are examples.
“It’s a nice day, isn’t it?”
“No, my dog just died.”
It’s funny how the simplest of everyday phrases can be profoundly philosophical:
“Who am I?”
“What are we doing, really?”
“Where did I come from? Where am I going?”
“Is it real?”
“Is it serious?”
“How do you really feel? Don’t give me a label or cliche..”
“Do I really know you? Do I really know myself?”
Historically, I don’t think that morality has been conditioned by rational inquiry; I think that it’s a leisure activity by those that are already protected economically, socially etc.
February 16th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Whoops. I no longer agree totally with the last paragraph. I meant moral inquiry is a leisure activity, not morality itself.
February 17th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Blackjack is a leisure activity, Conor. So is playing tag. There are rules involved with them, but no one considers them particularly meaningful in the sense in which people consider morality or moral inquiry to be meaningful. And yet, people in all places and at all times have considered morality to be terribly meaningful, whatever their formal philosophy. (Steal a nihilist’s, or a moral relativist’s, spot in a train, for instance, and then see how quickly he calls you out for acting wrongly or unfairly.) The questions you don’t answer are: why do they think this? What reasons do they have to think this?
My point is that the plain meaning of moral language argues powerfully for the existence of real objective moral standards to make that language meaningful. The existence of the language itself doesn’t prove that these standards exist, but it does prove that every culture throughout history (except one: modern Western culture) clearly believed that it did. That conviction completely influenced their development of moral language such that, without it, moral terms like “good”, “bad”, or “progressive” have no meaning if it is false.
February 17th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I’m not sure that people in all places and at all times have considered moral *inquiry* to be important.
There are people that consciously decide moral standards for the few so for the majority of people it’s a learned social and cultural experience. Morality for most has a feeling quality and doesn’t start with impartial empirical analysis.
A nihilist rejects all theories of morality or religious belief but that’s not to say that he can’t act in accordance with his feelings if they happen to cross over into the domain of ’some other philosophies’ morality. For example, a nihilist may refuse to murder a person but that doesn’t mean he’s a Christian because he’s obeying the sixth commandment. Similarly a meat-eater might decide to eat a salad…but that doesn’t mean he’s a vegetarian.
If humans were always guided by their intellect and not their emotions then the nihilist may have coincided the chair to the other passenger but a humans moral life is influenced by their emotions and whatever calculated ideas the nihilist may have in the safety of his armchair may go out the window when he steps outside his door.
“My point is that the plain meaning of moral language argues powerfully for the existence of real objective moral standards to make that language meaningful.”
Objective standards change; that’s reality. I don’t think a standard has to be universal through time and space for it to be objective once it is clearly defined and measurable and has reached a consensus amongst the people that are supposed to adopt it.
If there was a universal axiom on which to measure morality it would have to justify itself on domains that are not mutually reconcilable. For example, a moral standard might appeal to one’s intellect but not to one’s emotion. A moral standard(like vegetarianism) might be inconvenient and impractical though intellectually and emotionally appealing etc.
February 17th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Conor, you seem to have made several claims:
#1 That (most? all?) morality is a social construct, instigated by intellectuals, social engineers: “there are people who consciously decide moral standards…” which are used to by the elite to protect themselves from poverty, disgrace, etc.
#2 That “objective standards” should be decided democratically, collectively, and that a moral system which you approve of “would have to justify itself” by “a consensus amongst the people that are supposed to adopt it”.
#3 That when the nihilist leaves an armchair and rides a train, and yells “that was unfair!”, he is acting irrationally, even if he claims to be acting rationally. By contrast, morals which are “clearly defined” and reached by “consensus”, can be upheld on rational grounds. i.e., in court, in academia, in professional societies, etc.
Regarding #1, that claim is fundamentally a) Marxist and b) nihilist. Question: I am curious, do you think it is simply your emotion, or is it your rational opinion, that this sort of aristocratic upper-class ‘moral inquiry’ ought to be avoided? Regarding #2, is it simply your emotion, or is it your rational opinion that a democratically organized moral system is to be preferred? Why would that sort of moral system “have to justify itself” in any particular way? And why would the people “are supposed to adopt it” feel so obliged? Regarding #3, if a progressive society were to rationally agree upon its own so-called ‘objective’ moral system, on what rational grounds would that society follow the rules they have made up for themselves?
C. S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man:
“It still remains true that no justification of virtue will enable a man to be virtuous.”
“Without the aid of trained emotions the intellect is powerless against the animal organism.”
“If we did not bring to the examinations of our instincts a knowledge of their comparative dignity we could never learn it from them.”
February 18th, 2008 at 11:45 am
“Question: I am curious, do you think it is simply your emotion, or is it your rational opinion, that this sort
of aristocratic upper-class ‘moral inquiry’ ought to be avoided?”
I never said it should be avoided. I think it’s important to realize the limitation of its practice - does it
change peoples behavior independently of how they feel about a matter or is it merely verbal adjunct to justify ones action, position etc.
I think there can be many rational opinions on one subject. A rational opinion in morality is like the path taken to reach a point that has already been pre-co-ordinated from a complex array of factors - a person’s emotions are one factor. The rational opinion we choose is often informed by judgments based on emotion and learned/innate prejudices but that doesn’t mean that it’s irrational. Hitler made rational moral decisions.
I question moral inquiries impact, historically, in directing the moral judgment of man. I think it is biased.
There are moral explanations and moral excuses that are based upon the past or future intent. Moral inquiry is a dubious exercise if you think that a standard can be arrived at that is independent of your personality, social environment, upbringing etc. It’s not scientific in the way we can measure the boiling point of water in a lab. It is a complex and dynamic process and not a thing or object in the real world - it is an abstract noun.
For the common man a sense of morality(and hence behavior in society) has been influenced by ideas of punishment and reward. These standards of punishment and reward are decided by law-makers, religious figures that traditionally have been amongst the wealthiest and most powerful in society. Historically, these people have been distinct from the average person in that they were more likely to be wealthy and well-regarded; the opposite of being in poverty and disgraced.
“Regarding #2, is it simply your emotion, or is it your rational opinion that a democratically organized moral
system is to be preferred?”
Preferred over what? I don’t remember stating my preference and I never said ‘democratic’ but I did phrase it
clumsily. I said “has reached a consensus amongst the people that are supposed to adopt it.” Sometimes this
consensus has been amongst the upper class only; lawmakers and the religious elite that have been responsible
for adopting a standard of acceptable behavior for the people.
I get the feeling that you were trying to pin me down on either deciding for an emotional judgment VERSUS a
rational opinion. Do you think that these methods are mutually exclusive for arriving at an opinion?
You said:
Why would that sort of moral system “have to justify itself” in any particular way?
I’m talking about on an individual level; a moral idea has to be justifiable, or agreeable, to a person before they accept it.
And why would the people “are supposed to adopt it” feel so obliged?
Jail, hell, feeling guilty. Pain and punishment are real world standards of behavior and our morality tries to wriggle itself into a comforting narrative around these facts.
You said:
Regarding #3, if a progressive society were to rationally agree upon its own so-called ‘objective’ moral
system, on what rational grounds would that society follow the rules they have made up for themselves?
I might litter because it’s convenient. I don’t think littering is the right thing to do for other people. If I get caught littering I’m fined. I don’t see a need to reconcile these apparent contradictions under a unified moral framework.
As for C.S.Lewis
“It still remains true that no justification of virtue will enable a man to be virtuous.”
I don’t know anybody that is virtuous without a reason to be virtuous. Christians are virtuous because they believe in heaven and the paternal eye of God. The child that eats his vegetables feels that he is securing the affection of his mother(just like the devotee that says his prayers). The atheist that smiles and chats with his elderly neighbors does so because it produces a feeling of well-being and being part of a social group. If Lewis means ‘justification’ as rationale introduced through discourse then I agree that this statement has merit because it acknowledges that thought does not arise or exist from a vacuum and is inseparable from a larger psychological context.
“Without the aid of trained emotions the intellect is powerless against the animal organism.”
Is the intellect separate from the animal organism? I’m not familiar with Christian thinking, but does the soul now include the intellect and if so then how do they come into contact? I use my intellect as an extension of my physical abilities with the animalistic ends of feeding myself, reproducing and keeping myself secure.
“If we did not bring to the examinations of our instincts a knowledge of their comparative dignity we could never learn it from them.”
Again there is a separation between ‘our instincts’ and us. I’m not familiar with this philosophical outlook and to be honest I’m not sure what he means! What does he mean when he says ‘comparative dignity’?
February 18th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
“Moral inquiry is a dubious exercise if you think that a standard can be arrived at that is independent of your personality, social environment, upbringing etc.”
On the other hand, moral inquiry is a pointless exercise if you think that a standard cannot be arrived at independent of individual personality, social environment, upbringing, etc.
Moral inquiry only has purpose if there is a morality out there that exists, as you put it, as a thing or object in the world, to inquire about. If no such thing exists, moral inquiry is merely, as Neitzche suggested, a balm for intellects too timid to be comfortable with serving as their own lawmaker. Morality exists; or doesn’t. Moral inquiry is desperately needed useful or entirely useless, depending. I don’t see any logical room for middle ground.
February 19th, 2008 at 4:59 am
“On the other hand, moral inquiry is a pointless exercise if you think that a standard cannot be arrived at independent of individual personality, social environment, upbringing, etc.”
It isn’t a pointless inquiry if you are the individual that has the authority for setting the moral standard. You can set a standard, if you’re king for example, and use it to govern your kingdom for the duration of your reign. Searching for a standard of morality is like looking for a painting that will serve as a standard by which to judge if something is Art.
Morality is an abstract noun. It doesn’t have shape, size or dimension and it doesn’t exist in the world of physical objects so ‘finding’ it seems absurd, ‘deciding its definition’ seems more useful.
The logical middle-ground is introduced when you see morality as a conceptual noun, such as beauty, art etc. and see that it doesn’t exist in the concrete but should be defined as a working measure.
Last weekend a teenager in my estate created a wonderful narrative through graffiti on the walls surrounding the estate. The residents said it was ugly and the graffiti was removed. I tried to raise the argument about the true meaning of art but the removal went ahead regardless.
February 20th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Half of any discussion is defining vocabulary.
Regarding the abstract/concrete noun thread of ideas, let’s consider a flower. The generic flower is usually a smallish plant with a green stem and petal of some other color such as white or red, etc. You may call it a flower, a daisy, a weed or anything else you like, but your conception/definition of the flower does not change the flower. The flower is concrete, meaning we agree about what it is because we verify it with sight, smell, taste, and other visceral senses.
Morality in an abstract noun. As was discussed above, this means that it cannot directly be heard, seen, smelled, tasted or touched. Now morality is either unchangeable (like the flower) which we will call objective, or it is fluid, which in its many forms we will call relative morality. For morality to be relative (i.e. that morality would actually change as it is defined differently by different authorities at different times), it must not be like the flower. The question is, why would an abstract noun be less objective only because it cannot be interpreted by the visceral senses?
I can offer examples of abstract nouns which are also objective. Oxygen is a simple enough example. It cannot be affected by the senses nor does it affect the senses directly. Was oxygen less objective when it was not understood? Did people breath in bread or dirt when they did not understand oxygen? In other words, just because something is “non-material” does not prevent it from being real and unchangeable.
I am hoping to see support for the argument that morality must be relative as it is abstract.
The other question is, why must morality be concrete? Well, this is a question I am wrestling with myself. If morality were just what some guy said just because he said it and had the authority to enforce it, well that seems to be what we call laws, regulations, preferences and values. It seems more useful to consider morality as an objective (unchangeable) standard for the sake of purity of language. I am sorry I do not have an argument of why this must be so independent of its convenience, but I am hoping to proceed together in a process of mutual discovery.
February 20th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
One reason why it must be so, linguistically and conceptually, is because if morality is just what some guy said, it’s not really morality, but just that guy’s will. Maybe that guy will beat you up if you don’t obey his will–that doesn’t make his commands moral in magnitude.
February 20th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Your statement as I understand it translates to:
-Morality is x
-x is mutually exclusive with y
-if morality were y then it would not be x
Conclusion: Morality must be x and not y
This is fine if we agree that morality = x (objective). But we do not. You need to support your tenet that morality must be objective for your circular reasoning to hold much water.
February 20th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Strike that last part about circular reasoning. Let’s pretend I ended the comment at “tenet that morality must be objective.”
February 20th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
My point is merely that if morality exists, it is objective. Relativistic values aren’t morals at all, but only acts of human will without metaphysical significance. It’s a corruption of language to refer to values (relativistic) as morals (absolute). Maybe morals don’t exist. But if they do exist, they must, by definition, be objective.
February 21st, 2008 at 9:16 am
“The question is, why would an abstract noun be less objective only because it cannot be interpreted by the visceral senses?”
Flower and oxygen are both concrete nouns, not abstract. Oxygen has mass and a dimension and is material. It can also be measured indirectly through the sences using physical instruments.
“your conception/definition of the flower does not change the flower.”
Yes, and my definition of a Jabber wouldn’t change a Jabber if it existed. But just because I define something doesn’t mean it exists. To define something objectively is to describe it using measurements from a standardised device.
“The question is, why would an abstract noun be less objective only because it cannot be interpreted by the visceral senses?”
Abstract and objective are generally construed to have opposite meanings. Can an idea be objective? Should an idea be objective for it to be workable or useful? It seems to me that the closest an abstract noun can get to being ‘objective’ is for it to have a common and workable definition.
“Was oxygen less objective when it was not understood?”
Oxygen still existed, though it wasn’t defined. Similarly, I might define the back part of my IPOD as a Jabber. Did Jabber’s exist two years ago? Yes, if we use a current definition of a Jabber. Were they objective? No, not back then (they are retrospectively). If they had been objective there would have had to have been a measurable definition of what they were.
“I am hoping to see support for the argument that morality must be relative as it is abstract.”
Morality is relative because it is *dependent* on a conceptual definition for its existence. Is that what you mean by relative? As in, it can only be defined in relation to something else? I don’t think relativity is synonymous with subjectivity. Both objective and subjective ‘things’ are relative. If you take the mathemathical statement, 1 + 0 = 1, the ‘equals to’ sign means ‘relative to zero’.
Here is a definition from dictionary.com of objectivity:
-intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book.
And here are some definitions of abstract:
-thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances: an abstract idea.
-an idea or term considered apart from some material basis or object.
If morality was both objective and abstract then that would appear to be a contradiction in terms. I don’t believe morality is objective in the strict definition of the word. As an idea, it’s definable, and in a sense that definition becomes a measurable standard so it’s useful/employable/workable…dare I use meaningful as a synonym for useful?
The distinction between arbitrary and objective often becomes blurred under philosophical analysis. The
delineation between ’sun’ and ‘not sun’ is arbitrary. You look up at a yellow splotch in the sky and you point and
say ‘there’s the sun’. Do you mean the yellow disk? Do you mean the yellow disk and it’s hallow of light? How about the glare on your sunglasses, the blueness of the sky, the form of the street in front of you, your brown skin pigmentation..it’s all sun light in some form. Your body’s movement, your thoughts, the letters on this page are converted sunlight (the calorific value of food, the electric power running your computer etc.). You might look up at the moon and say “there’s the sun” because that is what you are looking at…bits of sun have reflected off the moon and are doing all sorts of interesting stuff with your eyes.
“The other question is, why must morality be concrete?”
I don’t agree with the basis of your question. It can be concrete in the sense that a girls face is a concrete manifestation of the concept ‘beauty’. But the concept of morality or beauty are only pointers to something; they don’t exist as physical objects(similar to how certain adjectives don’t ‘get meaning’ independently of objects/nouns). If you’re using a moral standard to govern the behavior of people then you’ll necessarily have to make provisions for the physical enforcement of the concept because nobody’s going to obey the disagreeable rule of a king just because he ‘thinks its right’.
“If morality were just what some guy said just because he said it and had the authority to enforce it, well that seems to be what we call laws, regulations, preferences and values.”
There are different levels of morality; laws and regulations are defined as clearly and as definitively as possible so that they have a purpose/usefulness in keeping society within a certain state.
The other type of morality is personal; how a person rationalizes and governs their own will. One way in which people govern their will is through religious authority and public opinion (which functions as a type of authority to reward and punish).
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Jeremy Gayed said:
“One reason why it must be so, linguistically and conceptually, is because if morality is just what some guy said, it’s not really morality, but just that guy’s will. Maybe that guy will beat you up if you don’t obey his will–that doesn’t make his commands moral in magnitude.”
You make statements like “it’s not really morality” and “moral in magnitude” without defining what you mean by morality which is partly what we are discussing. So you’ve come to a debate about the definition of morality with a pre-defined definition of morality that you’ve not disclosed here.
What’s necessarily wrong with a guy’s will? The same guy might will for the people of his country to have subsidized healthcare. Is it no longer subsidized healthcare because it’s the guys will? If you replace the world ‘morality’ with ’subsidized healthcare’ your sentence makes as much sence. As regards the guy beating you up, the enforcement of a moral standard does not change the moral standard.
‘Thou shalt not kill’ is a moral standard. If I slap your wrist or chop off your head when you break this standard that does not affect the standard ‘Thou shalt not kill’. The standard is defined (and definition is where make-shift objectivity comes in) independently of how you decide to enforce it. Now, you can disagree with a standard, in which case it’s a disagreeable moral standard, but that’s not going to stop the police from arresting you. ‘Thou shalt not kill’ has an authority behind it; be it the police or Gods judging eye.
In a later post you said:
“My point is merely that if morality exists, it is objective. Relativistic values aren’t morals at all, but only acts of human will without metaphysical significance. It’s a corruption of language to refer to values (relativistic) as morals (absolute). Maybe morals don’t exist. But if they do exist, they must, by definition, be objective.”
Morality doesn’t exist in the same sence that a table or chair exists. It exists in the same sence that justice exists..as handcuffs, the brick and mortar of a prison cell etc. So, if you don’t think morality exists then you mustn’t think ‘justice’, ‘art’, ‘beauty’ etc. exist. They don’t exist physically as things in themselves,
but where’s the problem? They are still usable standards and are used to inform human interactions.
“Relativistic values aren’t morals at all, but only acts of human will without metaphysical significance.”
You’ve introduced a qualification for morality that I’m unfamiliar with. Are you saying that morality must have have metaphysical significance? Again, it would help if you could define what you meant by morality.
“It’s a corruption of language to refer to values (relativistic) as morals (absolute).”
Who said that morals should be absolute? Moral decisions are made everyday by people of different faiths, jurisdictions and circumstances without using a universal standard. In any case, you’ve made a statement about morality being absolute without explaining it.
An idea doesn’t have to exist physically for it to be meaningful.
February 21st, 2008 at 9:20 am
Whoops. I just found out that a Jabber does exist. I should have used something like ‘gremlin’ or ‘goblin’ to illustrate the point.
February 21st, 2008 at 9:23 am
The central point of this article is that unless morality (or “objective moral standards”) is objective — that is (as Jeremy said), if it actually exists — moral language is just about meaningless. It’s gibberish. What would “good” mean, then, except, “What I want or like at the moment”? What would “better” mean, except, “Something more like what I want right now”? And how could we ever compare “good” with “bad”?
What would be the difference between these two statements, if morality isn’t objective?
“I didn’t like kimchi (fermented cabbage with salt, fish sauce, and chili paste; a ubiquitous side dish in Korea) before I came to Korea. Now I like it a lot.”
AND
“I didn’t like raping and murdering co-eds before I dumped my fiance. Now I like it a lot.”
The first statement represents me, in 2008. The second statement represents Ted Bundy (notorious American serial killer), in 1974. But, if morality really is just a matter of will or preferences, what’s the qualitative difference? I’m sure you could say that Bundy hurt people and I don’t, but where does this principle of not hurting people come from? And why is it so important anyway? And who are you to tell me how to live my life? There’s no accounting for taste. Back off.
February 21st, 2008 at 11:30 am
Paul,
I don’t think there is a principle ‘don’t hurt people’ without a context. If that was the case then armies, boxers, parents etc. would be morally indignant irrespective of the context.
If you take the description of an event you gave about Ted Bundy then how would you make it into a moral principle?
Ted Bundy should not murder and rape his fiance after dumping her?
People should not murder and rape their fiances after dumping them?
People should not murder and rape their fiances?
People should not murder and rape?
Some people should not murder and rape certain people?
Just because I feel disgusted by something, doesn’t automatically make it a moral principle for all people irregardless of time and location.
“if morality really is just a matter of will or preferences, what’s the qualitative difference?”
The qualitative(emotional?) difference causes the degree of will and preference. If you’d like to discuss what causes the emotional preferences and will in the first place, then I’d open up a can of worms about humans being conditioned as social animals for the good of their survival.
‘Good’ doesn’t necessarily carry a moral context.
‘The good of the people’ - spoken at the announcement of a new government health initiative.
‘The good of the people’ - spoken by Hitler as part of an address on the economic justification for acts against the Jews. Morally repugnant, but good is used here accurately to refer to the economic progress of Germany.
‘This lolly tastes good’ - small child.
Good is a contextual word and arguing that people use the word ‘progressive’ and ‘good’ incorrectly is taking these terms out of context and using them as a straw-man by which to introduce a moral standard that exists ‘independent of human desires or social constructions’.
I think I know what you have in mind.
“I didn’t like kimchi (fermented cabbage with salt, fish sauce, and chili paste; a ubiquitous side dish in Korea) before I came to Korea. Now I like it a lot.”
That’s just wrong!
February 21st, 2008 at 11:33 am
Conor, we’re talking past each other a little bit. You’re addressing the meatiest substance of the issue–what morality is. I, less ambitiously, am just trying to clarify a semantic point.
We’ll be able to talk more fruitfully about what you want to talk about if we have a common understanding of the words we’re using. You are using the word “morality” to refer to a whole range of suggestions or commands that purport to be normative. The way you’re using it, the word could include equally commands from a holy text, orders from a police officer, and the strongly worded suggestion of the guy next to you at the bar.
I think it’s more useful–and more linguistically appropriate–to define terms more precisely. The word “moral” signifies only imperatives that come from a source of absolute authority (i.e., a god or superhuman agency). Morality is definitionally objective. That doesn’t prove that morals exist, nor does it clarify their specific contents if they do. All it says is that in the English language, “moral” refers to something objective in nature. Whether that objective thing exists is something we can discuss.
Your “levels of morality” include a lot of things that aren’t, linguistically, morality. It includes imperatives from non-absolute authority (like kings or police), and mere individual preferences. Now maybe these things are all that really exist, and we can talk about that. But we can discuss the issue more fruitfully, and avoid a lot of apples-and-oranges misunderstandings, if we distinguish preferences or laws from morals, rather than to lump them all together with the same label.
February 23rd, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Conor,
You’ve said regarding moral inquiry, “I think it’s important to realize the limitation of its practice” but you have yet to rationally decide whether it is valid and useful. All you have done is to suggestively undermine it (to ‘chop down jungles’ according to C.S.Lewis) by claiming there are “pre-co-ordinated” factors. Which isn’t enough to convince a rational person. If you want a good argument, you’ve got to define your terms and come down on one side. As of now your views are that of a manipulative sophist, a skeptic, not a true philosopher. Ironically, it is your own arguing-style which is pre-eminently emotional. Not truly rational. So you are at least self-consistent!
Yes, I was trying to “pin you down” regarding emotions versus rationality. Do I think these methods are mutually exclusive? No. The mind and body are connected. But the two are on different planes of reality. Lots of rational thinking involves emotions, but you can’t use emotions to debunk or discredit rationality in a suggestive manner, as you are doing. All you have done there, is to destroy the concept of rationality. The problem is you think of the two in a dualistic manner, probably stemming from a materialistic philosophy on your part. You think of rationality and emotions as a mixture. But they are on different planes. There is a hierarchy at work. Rationality may include emotions without being spoiled. But for that to be the case, rationality must be there from the beginning. Emotions may accompany, but add nothing to rationality’s proper nature.
You claim that morality is created to accomodate circumstances in the world, whether economic or social: “Our morality tries to wriggle itself into a comforting narrative”. And that’s a perfectly valid claim, for a nihilist. But in order to try to convince me, or anyone on this site who does not think like a child, you’re going to have to present a rational argument (which first requires believing in one.) Lewis has said “It still remains true that no justification of virtue will enable a man to be virtuous.” What he was saying, was that rational calculation does nor propel us to follow our moralities. So what Lewis is doing here, is refuting your idea that we can make a better moral system for ourselves. Basically, Lewis proves that your position, that of trying to denounce traditional moral systems, is really nihilism at heart, and is utterly incapable of putting a new morality in place.
You say “I use my intellect as an extension of my physical abilities… for animalistic ends”. This is essentially to undermine the intellect. For every point you make, I could say “that’s because you were afraid of your father, or that’s because you are projecting some wishful subconscious desire, or blahblahblah.” You see, the Freudian suggestion, which you employ as an arguing tactic, invalidates all of your real arguments. It would benefit your argument, to try to give it up.
You say “It isn’t a pointless inquiry if you are the individual that has the authority for setting the moral standard.” So basically, you are claiming that being a tyrant, a dictator, a moral Innovator, a Nietzschean Superman, is not a pointless exercise. My friend, you’ve set up a perfect philosophy in support of tyranny. And 20th century history is not on your side.
You say “dare I use meaningful as a synonym for useful?” No, you dare not. The idea of dying for one’s country is meaningful, but not irrationally or viscerally, or even objectively useful to a person. Why should a person think that usefulness to their country, or society, is usefulness to them? Why would they be propelled to make that sacrifice? You might say, because they are propelled by ‘meaning’ not by ‘usefulness’, which is to say that every good soldier who gave their life in the 20th century (fighting your nasty philosophies) was motivated by something objective and visceral, i.e. something irrational, and not something truly abstract and spiritually ‘meaningful’ in the sense which you deny. And then you are also saying that you rationally (abstractedly) know WHY they decided to sacrifice their life: that they were propelled by objective ‘emotions’ which are evolutionarily advantageous, that they are “humans being conditioned as social animals for the good of their survival.” (their survival? hahahaha) But the truth remains that knowing what you know, (the purportedly rational transcendent truth about human ‘morals’ and evolutionary social conditiong) there is no truly abtract ‘meaningful’ reason for YOU to give up your own life for your country or society. This is offensive, because you put your own understanding on a transcendent plane, in comparison to other human beings, and their moral decisions.